In Response to Ignorance: Part IX

PUBLIC AFFAIRS: A little earlier, Elder Oaks, you talked about the same standard of morality for heterosexuals and homosexuals. How would you address someone who said to you, ‘I understand it’s the same standard, but aren’t we asking a little more of someone who has same-gender attraction?’ Obviously there are heterosexual people who won’t get married, but would you accept that they at least have hope that ‘tomorrow I could meet the person of my dreams.’ There’s always the hope that that could happen at any point in their life. Someone with same-gender attraction wouldn’t necessarily have that same hope.
ELDER OAKS: There are differences, of course, but the contrast is not unique. There are people with physical disabilities that prevent them from having any hope [Jacob: Once again, homosexuality is not a disability.] — in some cases any actual hope and in other cases any practical hope — of marriage. The circumstance of being currently unable to marry, while tragic, is not unique.
It is sometimes said that God could not discriminate against individuals in this circumstance. But life is full of physical infirmities that some might see as discriminations — total paralysis or serious mental impairment being two that are relevant to marriage [Jacob: Your comparisons are ignorant at best, but in reality they're impertinent. Homosexuality is not a disability]. If we believe in God and believe in His mercy and His justice, it won’t do to say that these are discriminations because God wouldn’t discriminate. We are in no condition to judge what discrimination is. We rest on our faith in God and our utmost assurance of His mercy and His love for all of His children. [Jacob: Hiding discrimination behind religion is not new; it must feel safe to discriminate when you believe in a god who justifies it.]
ELDER WICKMAN: There’s really no question that there is an anguish associated with the inability to marry in this life. We feel for someone that has that anguish. I feel for somebody that has that anguish. But it’s not limited to someone who has same-gender attraction.
We live in a very self-absorbed age. I guess it’s naturally human to think about my own problems as somehow greater than someone else’s. I think when any one of us begins to think that way, it might be well be to look beyond ourselves. Who am I to say that I am more handicapped, or suffering more, than someone else [Jacob: I'm beginning to think I should start getting disability compensation and maybe a handicapped license plate.]?
I happen to have a handicapped daughter. She’s a beautiful girl. She’ll be 27 next week. Her name is Courtney. Courtney will never marry in this life, yet she looks wistfully upon those who do. She will stand at the window of my office which overlooks the Salt Lake Temple and look at the brides and their new husbands as they’re having their pictures taken. She’s at once captivated by it and saddened because Courtney understands that will not be her experience here. Courtney didn’t ask for the circumstances into which she was born in this life, any more than somebody with same-gender attraction did. So there are lots of kinds of anguish people can have, even associated with just this matter of marriage. What we look forward to, and the great promise of the gospel, is that whatever our inclinations are here, whatever our shortcomings are here, whatever the hindrances to our enjoying a fullness of joy here, we have the Lord’s assurance for every one of us that those in due course will be removed. We just need to remain faithful. [Jacob: Homosexuality is neither a physical or mental handicap.]

In Response to Ignorance: Part VIII

PUBLIC AFFAIRS: Is heterosexual marriage ever an option for those with homosexual feelings?
ELDER OAKS: We are sometimes asked about whether marriage is a remedy for these feelings that we have been talking about. President Hinckley, faced with the fact that apparently some had believed it to be a remedy, and perhaps that some Church leaders had even counseled marriage as the remedy for these feelings, made this statement: “Marriage should not be viewed as a therapeutic step to solve problems such as homosexual inclinations or practices.” To me that means that we are not going to stand still to put at risk daughters of God who would enter into such marriages under false pretenses or under a cloud unknown to them. Persons who have this kind of challenge that they cannot control could not enter marriage in good faith.
On the other hand, persons who have cleansed themselves of any transgression and who have shown their ability to deal with these feelings or inclinations and put them in the background, and feel a great attraction for a daughter of God and therefore desire to enter marriage and have children and enjoy the blessings of eternity — that’s a situation when marriage would be appropriate [Jacob: Since gay people are not attracted to the opposite sex your approach is not applicable. You are referring to questioning persons or bisexuals. Also, you seem to imply that men are the only ones who experience homosexual feelings; this is of course false.]
President Hinckley said that marriage is not a therapeutic step to solve problems. [Jacob: True, he did say that. Cynically speaking, Marriage causes more problems than it solves.]
ELDER WICKMAN: One question that might be asked by somebody who is struggling with same-gender attraction is, “Is this something I’m stuck with forever? What bearing does this have on eternal life? If I can somehow make it through this life, when I appear on the other side, what will I be like?”
Gratefully, the answer is that same-gender attraction did not exist in the pre-earth life and neither will it exist in the next life. It is a circumstance that for whatever reason or reasons seems to apply right now in mortality, in this nano-second of our eternal existence.
The good news for somebody who is struggling with same-gender attraction is this: 1) It is that ‘I’m not stuck with it forever.’ It’s just now. Admittedly, for each one of us, it’s hard to look beyond the ‘now’ sometimes. But nonetheless, if you see mortality as now, it’s only during this season. 2) If I can keep myself worthy here, if I can be true to gospel commandments, if I can keep covenants that I have made, the blessings of exaltation and eternal life that Heavenly Father holds out to all of His children apply to me. Every blessing — including eternal marriage — is and will be mine in due course. [Jacob: It seems to me that this interview is being used as a means to inform the public about Mormon beliefs rather than explaining the church's political activity.]
ELDER OAKS: Let me just add a thought to that. There is no fullness of joy in the next life without a family unit, including a husband, a wife, and posterity. Further, men are that they might have joy. In the eternal perspective, same-gender activity will only bring sorrow and grief and the loss of eternal opportunities. [Jacob: These are beliefs, not facts.]

New Year's Resolutions

1. Upgrade my living conditions
   
2. Accumulate $7,000 in savings
   
3. Throw 5 swim team parties at new place
   

Blacklist

The following people have been blacklisted for their bigotted stance on issues of equality:

1. Thomas S. Monson (Leader of the Mormon Church)
2. Rick Warren (Evangelical Minister)
3. George Niederauer (San Francisco Catholic Archbishop)
4. Celestino Migliore (Catholic Archbishop)
5. William Donahue (President of the Catholic League)
6. James Dobson (Founder of Focus on the Family)
7. Fred Phelps (Westboro Baptist Paster)
8. Pat Robertson (Televangelist)
9. Dallin H. Oaks (Mormon Leader)
10. Lance B. Wickman (Mormon Leader)
11. Rush Limbaugh (American Radio Host)
12. George W. Bush (Former President of the US)
13. Dick Cheney (Former Vice President of the US)
14. Rick Santorum (Former US Senator)
15. Patrick Walker (Pastor of the Macedonia Baptist Church in Southeast Washington)
16. Elaine Donnelly (Crusader against gays in the military)
17. Army Sgt. Maj. Brian Jones (Army leader against gays in the military)
18. Steven Anderson (Fundamental Baptist Church Pastor in Tempe, Arizona)
19. Richard J. Malone (Bishop of Portland, OR)
20. Scott Lively (President of Abiding Truth Ministries)
21. John Hagee (Senior pastor of Cornerstone Church in San Antonio, Texas)
22. Ted Haggard (American Evangelical Preacher)

Let me know about others that need to be added...I know there are lots more. I'd like to include those who are against civil rights in general...not just anti-gay persons/organizations.

In Reponse to Ignorance: Part VII

PUBLIC AFFAIRS: Is therapy of any kind a legitimate course of action if we’re talking about controlling behavior? If a young man says, “Look, I really want these feelings to go away… I would do anything for these feelings to go away,” is it legitimate to look at clinical therapy of some sort that would address those issues?
ELDER WICKMAN: Well, it may be appropriate for that person to seek therapy. Certainly the Church doesn’t counsel against that kind of therapy. But from the standpoint of a parent counseling a person, or a Church leader counseling a person, or a person looking at his or her same-gender attraction from the standpoint of ‘What can I do about it here that’s in keeping with gospel teachings?’ the clinical side of it is not what matters most. What matters most is recognition that ‘I have my own will. I have my own agency. I have the power within myself to control what I do.’ [Jacob: This is off topic. Yes, yes...we all ability to control what we do. What you describe is inequality. You can marry the opposite sex and don't have to repress your sexuality, but if someone else wishes to marry the same sex they have to repress theirs? Not everyone is Mormon. This is America, we're entitled to our beliefs and equal treatment under the law.]
Now, that’s not to say it’s not appropriate for somebody with that affliction to seek appropriate clinical help to examine whether in his or her case there’s something that can be done about it. This is an issue that those in psychiatry, in the psychology professions have debated. Case studies I believe have shown that in some cases there has been progress made in helping someone to change that orientation; in other cases not [Jacob: That's because some people think being bisexual is the same as being homosexual. This is untrue. People who are truly gay will not be able to be convinced that they're attracted to the opposite sex; people who only prefer the same sex might be deluded into thinking they can make a heterosexual relationship work, but this state is often not sustainable.]. From the Church’s standpoint, from our standpoint of concern for people, that’s not where we place our principal focus. It’s on these other matters.
ELDER OAKS: Amen to that. Let me just add one more thought. The Church rarely takes a position on which treatment techniques are appropriate, for medical doctors or for psychiatrists or psychologists and so on.
The second point is that there are abusive practices that have been used in connection with various mental attitudes or feelings. Over-medication in respect to depression is an example that comes to mind. The aversive therapies that have been used in connection with same-sex attraction have contained some serious abuses that have been recognized over time within the professions. While we have no position about what the medical doctors do (except in very, very rare cases — abortion would be such an example), we are conscious that there are abuses and we don’t accept responsibility for those abuses. Even though they are addressed at helping people we would like to see helped, we can’t endorse every kind of technique that’s been used [Jacob: This may be the official stance of the church, but there are local leaders who encourage therapy and even recommend specific psychologists and psychiatrists. Also, since Mormons preach so consistently that homosexuality is an abomination (a word often associated with hate), parents are motivated to subject their children to therapies that may not be safe.].

In Response to Ignorance: Part VI

PUBLIC AFFAIRS: You’re saying the Church doesn’t necessarily have a position on ‘nurture or nature’
ELDER OAKS: That’s where our doctrine comes into play. The Church does not have a position on the causes of any of these susceptibilities or inclinations, including those related to same-gender attraction. Those are scientific questions — whether nature or nurture — those are things the Church doesn’t have a position on [Jacob: I think the church needs to do a better job of communicating this to their members. Most Mormons I speak with believe the church has a stance on this, and that the stance is that people are not born gay (in other words, not nature)].
ELDER WICKMAN: Whether it is nature or nurture really begs the important question, and a preoccupation with nature or nurture can, it seems to me, lead someone astray from the principles that Elder Oaks has been describing here. Why somebody has a same-gender attraction… who can say? But what matters is the fact that we know we can control how we behave, and it is behavior which is important [Jacob: You're right, everyone is control of their own actions...that is not the issue here. The real question why the Mormon church is supporting inititives that prevent people from being treated equally under the law. Let's try to stay on topic.]

In Response To Ignorance: PART V

PUBLIC AFFAIRS: If we were to look back at someone who had a ‘short fuse,’ and we were to look at their parents who might have had a short fuse, some might identify a genetic influence in that.

ELDER OAKS: No, we do not accept the fact that conditions that prevent people from attaining their eternal destiny were born into them without any ability to control [Jacob: Ok, that's a belief. I was hoping you'd use some facts to justify taking away people's rights.]. That is contrary to the Plan of Salvation, and it is contrary to the justice and mercy of God [Jacob: Belief.]. It’s contrary to the whole teaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ [Jacob: Belief.], which expresses the truth [Jacob: Not truth, a belief.] that by or through the power and mercy of Jesus Christ we will have the strength to do all things[Jacob: Belief.]. That includes resisting temptation [Jacob: Belief.]. That includes dealing with things that we’re born with, including disfigurements, or mental or physical incapacities [Jacob: Being gay is not a physical or mental impairment.]. None of these stand in the way of our attaining our eternal destiny. The same may be said of a susceptibility or inclination to one behavior or another which if yielded to would prevent us from achieving our eternal destiny [Jacob: I'll let god decide what my Eternal destiny is, not you or your church.].

In Response To Ignorance: PART IV

PUBLIC AFFAIRS: So you are saying that homosexual feelings are controllable?

ELDER OAKS: Yes, homosexual feelings are controllable [Jacob: Yes feelings are controllable...why should some people have to control their feelings and some not? If it isn't infringing on someone's rights, why should I have to control them? Because your church demands it?]. Perhaps there is an inclination or susceptibility to such feelings that is a reality for some and not a reality for others. But out of such susceptibilities come feelings, and feelings are controllable. If we cater to the feelings, they increase the power of the temptation. If we yield to the temptation, we have committed sinful behavior. That pattern is the same for a person that covets someone else’s property and has a strong temptation to steal [Jacob: Stealing and being gay are totally different, robbing someone of their property infringes on someone's rights, having a consensual relationship does not.]. It’s the same for a person that develops a taste for alcohol [Jacob: Being gay is not an addiction.]. It’s the same for a person that is born with a ‘short fuse,’ as we would say of a susceptibility to anger [Jacob: Being gay is not a personality flaw.]. If they let that susceptibility remain uncontrolled, it becomes a feeling of anger, and a feeling of anger can yield to behavior that is sinful and illegal [Jacob: Anger may lead to actions that infringe on others rights, but anger is an emotion not an attribute of personal identity like being gay is.]

We’re not talking about a unique challenge here. We’re talking about a common condition of mortality. We don’t understand exactly the ‘why,’ or the extent to which there are inclinations or susceptibilities and so on. But what we do know is that feelings can be controlled and behavior can be controlled. The line of sin is between the feelings and the behavior. The line of prudence is between the susceptibility and the feelings. We need to lay hold on the feelings and try to control them to keep us from getting into a circumstance that leads to sinful behavior [Jacob: I've already addressed all this, let's move on.].

ELDER WICKMAN: One of the great sophistries of our age, I think, is that merely because one has an inclination to do something, that therefore acting in accordance with that inclination is inevitable. That’s contrary to our very nature as the Lord has revealed to us. We do have the power to control our behavior [Jacob: We can control our behavior, but that doesn't justify taking away people's rights. Why should your beliefs coerce my behavior? You are promoting discrimination, some people are allowed to be intimate with the person they love and others are not based on your beliefs.]

In Response To Ignorance: PART III

Here is Part III of the "In Response to Ignorance" series. This time Elder Wickman also chimes in on behalf of Mormons.

PUBLIC AFFAIRS: If somebody has a very powerful heterosexual drive, there is the opportunity for marriage. If a young man thinks he’s gay, what we’re really saying to him is that there is simply no other way to go but to be celibate for the rest of his life if he doesn’t feel any attraction to women?

ELDER OAKS: That is exactly the same thing we say to the many members who don’t have the opportunity to marry. We expect celibacy of any person that is not married [Jacob: Ok, this is Mormon Doctrine, it is unethical to hold others to your standards and vice versa.].

ELDER WICKMAN: We live in a society which is so saturated with sexuality that it perhaps is more troublesome now, because of that fact, for a person to look beyond their gender orientation to other aspects of who they are [Jacob: Good, you acknowledge that sexual orientation is an aspect of who we are.]. I think I would say to your son or anyone that was so afflicted to strive to expand your horizons beyond simply gender orientation. Find fulfillment in the many other facets of your character and your personality and your nature that extend beyond that. There’s no denial that one’s gender orientation is certainly a core characteristic of any person, but it’s not the only one [Jacob: Well that's easy, sexual orientation is only a part of each of our identity. Still, it is unethical to bar someone from pursuing happiness when it does not infringe on other's rights. The saying goes, "Nothing is impossible for the person who doesn't have to do it." You were not required to ignore your sexuality. You do not understand the sacrifice that entails.].

What’s more, merely having inclinations does not disqualify one for any aspect of Church participation or membership, except possibly marriage as has already been talked about. But even that, in the fullness of life as we understand it through the doctrines of the restored gospel, eventually can become possible [Jacob: Once again, that's really easy for you to say. When are you going to talk about the facts you use to justify your political activity against gay marriage? You've stated beliefs, and gave some anecdotal evidence, where are your facts?].

In this life, such things as service in the Church, including missionary service, all of this is available to anyone who is true to covenants and commandments [Jacob: That's true. What about those of us who don't believe in Mormonism?].

In Response To Ignorance: PART II

PUBLIC AFFAIRS: Let’s say my 17-year-old son comes to talk to me and, after a great deal of difficulty trying to get it out, tells me that he believes that he’s attracted to men — that he has no interest and never has had any interest in girls. He believes he’s probably gay. He says that he’s tried to suppress these feelings. He’s remained celibate, but he realizes that his feelings are going to be devastating to the family because we’ve always talked about his Church mission, about his temple marriage and all those kinds of things. He just feels he can’t live what he thinks is a lie any longer, and so he comes in this very upset and depressed manner. What do I tell him as a parent?

ELDER OAKS: You’re my son. You will always be my son, and I’ll always be there to help you.

The distinction between feelings or inclinations on the one hand, and behavior on the other hand, is very clear. It’s no sin to have inclinations that if yielded to would produce behavior that would be a transgression [Jacob: It's important to make the distinction between fact and beliefs. The phase, "gay behavior is a transgression" is a belief.]. The sin is in yielding to temptation. Temptation is not unique. Even the Savior was tempted [Jacob: We all have urges, that's true. We all have beliefs, you believe that opposite sex attraction is ordained of god, but that is only a belief, not a fact. If someone is attracted to the opposite sex, and gets married magically these "temptations" are ok. One minute sex is a sin, a couple of "I do's" later it's holy.]

The New Testament affirms that God has given us commandments that are difficult to keep. It is in 1 Corinthians chapter 10, verse 13: “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.” [Jacob: Lots of examples of beliefs, where are the facts?]

I think it’s important for you to understand that homosexuality, which you’ve spoken of, is not a noun that describes a condition. It’s an adjective that describes feelings or behavior [Jacob: You're half right, it is both.]. I encourage you, as you struggle with these challenges, not to think of yourself as a ‘something’ or ‘another,’ except that you’re a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and you’re my son, and that you’re struggling with challenges [Jacob: Yes, my challenge is the oppression of a fundamentalist church. Just to be clear, being a member of the Mormon church is a choice. Membership in a church does not constitute more of a persons identity than their sexuality.].

Everyone has some challenges they have to struggle with [Jacob: First fact, congratz.]. You’ve described a particular kind of challenge that is very vexing [Jacob: Yes, being coerced by Mormon society to be something other than yourself is very vexing, thanks for being so sympathetic.]. It is common in our society and it has also become politicized [Jacob: Common is a relative term, but you're right...it has become politicized and the Mormon churched has helped it become so.]. But it’s only one of a host of challenges men and women have to struggle with, and I just encourage you to seek the help of the Savior to resist temptation and to refrain from behavior that would cause you to have to repent or to have your Church membership called into question [Jacob: This is a plea based on personal beliefs and ideologies, not facts.].

General Statements to Elder Oaks and the Mormon Church: Beliefs do not constitute facts so keep them out of our laws.

In Response To Ignorance: PART I

This is my humble attempt to thrust some reality and facts into Mormon rhetoric relating to gay people.

The following is taken directly from the LDS website whether the Mormon leader, Dallin H. Oaks gave an interview answering questions from a Mormon Public Affairs person.

In Response To Ignorance: PART I

PUBLIC AFFAIRS: At the outset, can you explain why this whole issue of homosexuality and same-gender marriage is important to the Church?

ELDER OAKS: This is much bigger than just a question of whether or not society should be more tolerant of the homosexual lifestyle [Jacob: Homosexuality is not a lifestyle, it is an attribute of a person's identify. Making a middle-class income is a lifestyle, residing in a city or in the country is a lifestyle; being gay or straight is not.]. Over past years we have seen unrelenting pressure from advocates of that lifestyle [Jacob: Elder Oaks fails to acknowledge the "unrelenting pressure" of the movement he belongs to.] to accept as normal what is not normal [Jacob: The idea of normal is very abstract. Every person on the planet has their own idea of "normal." In some people's opinions what the Mormons believe about god, heaven, marriage, the afterlife, etc. is abnormal.], and to characterize those who disagree as narrow-minded, bigoted and unreasonable [Jacob: This is called free speech. People are still free to call anyone a bigot regardless of whether or not gay marriage is legal.]. Such advocates are quick to demand freedom of speech and thought for themselves, but equally quick to criticize those with a different view [Jacob: The same laws that give you the right to condemn gays as sinners gives someone else the right to criticize those condemnations.] and, if possible, to silence them by applying labels like “homophobic. [Jacob: No one can legally silence you accept you. Since when does being labeled silence someone? You label gays as immoral, does that silence them?]” In at least one country where homosexual activists have won major concessions, we have even seen a church pastor threatened with prison for preaching from the pulpit that homosexual behavior is sinful [Jacob: Just for the record, the plaintiff dropped the charges before this case ever went to court. Also, one incident does not represent a movement or the sentiments of an entire community. The gay community has no spokesperson. Gay people exist in every culture, race, religion and class. A single person does not represent the views or goals of the gay community.]Given these trends, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints must take a stand on doctrine and principle [Jacob: A hundred incidents doesn't necessarily represent a trend, you have only cited one. That is not a trend]. This is more than a social issue — ultimately it may be a test of our most basic religious freedoms to teach what we know our Father in Heaven wants us to teach [Jacob: The initiatives you and your church support have written your own personal beliefs into law. There are many churches who affirm gay marriage, why should your beliefs matter more than theirs? You are not protecting religious freedom, you are destroying it.].

General statements to Elder Oaks and the Mormon church: You are free to believe what you want; you are free to say what you want, but writing your own beliefs into law goes outside of free speech.

Barack is the new Chuck Norris

The NPR blog, "Monkey See" posted some amusing tidbits putting Barack up there with Chuck Norris. LOL

Here are some highlights:

"- The White House press corps will be issued welder's goggles and UVP 150 sunscreen for when he smiles at press conferences."

"- Snacks on broken glass, rusty nails, and Republican pollsters."

"- Cannot carry credit cards or personal electronic devices due to his intense personal magnetism."

"- Is such a potent speaker that, during his acceptance speech, he made all the women in the first three rows pregnant. "

Oh NPR, how I love thee :D

Christopher Kennedy commented on the blog and added the following:

"Barack Obama's smile can regrow hair – even for Karl Rove."

"Barack Obama can slam a revolving door."

"[Barack Obama] once successfully divided by zero."

Sunfish Website Facelift

The new Phoenix Sunfish website and logo has gone live.

A Mormon Who Doesn't Care

Here is a slightly humorous article by a Salt Lake Mormon who doesn't care if gay people get married; he has a very secular stance on what most Mormons consider to be a deeply religious issue.

It's so refreshing to hear from free thinkers in the Mormon community. Too often Mormon's let their church do the thinking for them.

Pro-Gay-Marriage Mormons

I never would have believed that there are a significant number of Mormons who oppose the church's promotion of Propositions 8 and 102 in California and Arizona respectively, until my email discussion with extended family.

Somehow, I found it easy to write off all Mormons as close-minded on the issue.

Apparently the church has become more and more divided on the subject, "Prop 8: California gay marriage fight divides LDS faithful."

The Palin Effect

"You've got a lot of awesome, loving gay friends, but you don't think they should be allowed to marry, that's the Palin Effect."

Yes, huge surprise...Palin stated today that she'd support a US Constitutional Amendment that would ban gay marriage on a national level, despite the fact that this is not in alignment with her running mate. Still, neither support gay marriage.

Gay marriage is, of course, an important issue to bring up during this time of financial crisis, war, and healthcare woes. After all, how else are you going to get your base out to vote unless you start appealing to their willful ignorance? If you let people focus on the real issues, the indecisive party members and independents are going to vote against you.

Go Republicans! Number 1 in distracting the American people since...since...who knows when?

President Sarah Palin

Here's a little more political satyr relating to Governor Palin.
It's a preview of the changes she'd make to the oval office and the country :P

http://www.palinaspresident.us/never/index.html

Sarah Palin's Debate Flow Chart

Click on the image to see larger version.

In Memory of Lizzy

My sweet Lizzy passed away today after a series of complications following ingesting something toxic.

I'll never forget the perfectly sweet little puppy she was.

Sweet Agony

It's a beautiful image my mind can see
A lovely thought that's not meant to be
Reality can never quite compare
With my imagination's colorful flare

Oh, the sweet agony, when I picture you there
The color of your eyes as I helplessly stare
The visions that paint across my mind
Only heighten the pain I quickly find.

And yet my sufferings small in compared
To the option of actually having you there